Nick, In response to your lsst-general posting 137, here are my thoughts on wide field imaging figures of merit and the comparison of PanSTARRS with the 8.4m LSST. We should be consistent in comparing different facilities with respect to details like filters and detectors. Figures of merit for these facilities, to be meaningful, should assume identical detectors and filters for each facility. The question these figures of merit are meant to address is: based on a survey facility’s optical throughput, seeing, sky background, and efficiency (on-sky time) what is the relative power of a facility to carry out various types of science programs (the three figures of merit). I could have used very wide filters, but that would limit the range of science produced. So that is why I use standard filters and assume identical 5e noise silicon detector arrays. I agree that we should add an astrometry figure of merit. An advantage of high throughput for a survey facility is the ability to pursue a wider range of science in the same survey. In fact, the throughput of our 8.4m (6.9m eff) LSST design, which enables it to go relatively faint wide and fast simultaneously, is just enough to pursue the variety of science goals discussed in our last SWG meeting. For example, the need for multi band color data over the whole visible sky on a range of timescales is a requirement for many programs. Once we have figures of merit for the key science drivers (I chose the three discussed in the decadal survey) then it is easier to see how to develop an optimal program. As throughput goes down below some critical value it becomes advantageous to pursue a more limited survey focused on one or two optimized modes. PanSTARRS and SNAP do this well and, as I mentioned in my memo, represent significant leaps forward. A sequence of surveys on such facilities then becomes attractive, and one can imagine a linear algebra of these basic FOMs as an optimization tool. Regarding the PanSTARRS (PS) parameters, I have read the internal document “Efficiency Notes.” http://pan-starrs.ifa.hawaii.edu/project/people/kaiser/efficiency_notes.pdf Your estimate of 30% obscuration for the 1.8 m PS telescopes updates my estimate of maximum effective aperture. The resulting 1.78 sq.m effective aperture of each of the PS telescopes is smaller than I had assumed. For simplicity I also assumed sky noise limited exposures in all those FOMs. For sky noise limited exposures with all four PS telescopes in operation, the effective aperture of PS is four times the above number: 7.12 sq.m. Using your 7 sq.deg FOV then leads to a PS throughput (for sky noise limited exposures) of 49.8 sq.m sq.deg compared with LSST’s 262 sq.m sq.deg. This is the factor of 5.3 to which you refer. While we are studying the advantages of thick Si p-i-n diode (hybrid CMOS) arrays, we remain very interested in OTCCDs as a candidate for the LSST focal plane. However, I do not see how OTCCDs can reduce the size of the 0.3 arcsec PS pixel. So I do not understand your factor of 2 decrease in PSF. Such a gain could occur part of the time for PS if the seeing were near 1” FWHM so that it was well sampled. But I am assuming each ground based facility will de-weight poor seeing images. Under the right conditions and for well sampled PSFs (like Jacoby, Tonry etal’s implementation on WIYN) OTCCDs can improve the seeing statistics, and they can compensate for a variety of high frequency telescope tracking errors. OTCCDs have the potential of improving the PSF or introducing errors into several moments of the PSF, depending on feedback details, and I am eager to see what PSF shear improvements are obtained in tests. In any case, since I assume the same detector for all facilities, for the purposes of FOMs OTCCDs or any other assumed detector would give the same advantage to all facilities. There is some confusion over the values of the timescale tau I used in the “time window” FOM. For the broad set of time domain programs (moving objects to variable stellar objects) I take tau as the shortest sky limited integration time. Instead I could have used a metric related to the time resolution for variables or some measure of trailing in moving objects, but this metric is different for each program and becomes mired in exposure sequence strategy. In a survey for bright flashes, like RAPTOR, sky noise and read noise are not as important. Pace and FOV are more important. But for faint flashes or faint moving objects one should use an expression for the FOMs which explicitly include the read noise and sky noise, whose ratio depends in the exposure time and throughput. Cutting the throughput in half yields a double hit: exposure times to sky noise limit must be longer, and the area surveyed to a given flux limit drops due to the decrease in pace. For a multi-telescope survey facility like PS, each of the telescopes must reach sky noise limit in the integration time. For each PS telescope+camera the throughput is 12.5 sq.m sq.deg. I agree with Table 3 on page 3 of the PS “Efficiency Notes” where the PS exposure time for sky noise limit is listed as 100 sec in V. Comparing PS with LSST, the ratio of shortest exposure time (for sky limit) should be the ratio of single telescope+camera throughputs: LSST/PS = 21. However, I did not take LSST’s V-band tau as 5 sec because LSST is required to reach the sky noise limit in B band in about 10 sec since we want to keep integration times equal. While it is a worry for shorter exposure times, there is no significant efficiency hit due to dome settling for LSST’s mode of taking multiple exposures offsetting in altitude before moving in azimuth. Telescope settling time can be made small via higher power drives. While we have not yet decided if we will take quick pairs of exposures any fraction of the time, note that it is not necessary to take close pairs of exposures for cosmic ray splits since every patch will be revisited often (this is not possible for low throughput). So I keep LSST tau = 10 sec as the timescale on which variations can be detected. Rather than use 210 sec for PS tau (as would be required for a fair comparison using the single camera throughput ratio of 21) I will update the PS tau to 100 sec (as listed in your document) in the attached FOMs. Of course you are not planning to use a V filter with PS. By using a much wider filter PS can address some programs by trading color data for shorter sky limit exposures, particularly slowly moving objects (KBOs and some NEOs). While some NEO’s trail significantly in 15 sec, the bigger effect will be in the pace: the rate of sky coverage is slower for long exposures. So all-sky coverage with multiple exposures per lunation becomes difficult. If PS focuses on a limited area near the ecliptic this will be less of an issue. LSST will cover the visible sky multiple times per lunation with standard filters. LSST and PS are thus quite different facilities. In fact they are complementary in other ways. They will undertake different science programs largely, LSST will release all data live to the community, and the funding sources of these two facilities do not overlap. I think both projects should be done. In my judgment the single camera and larger throughput of our current 8.4m design pose less engineering risk and offers a range of unprecedented science possibilities. You have decided to proceed with a four 1.8m (1.5m effective) telescope facility (PS). We have decided to pursue engineering on the 8.4m (6.9m effective) LSST design and see if we run into any problems. We have considered the option of splitting LSST in half, building two telescopes and two cameras, but the increased complexity and cost, and – significantly – the loss of the capability to cover the entire visible sky multiple times per lunation in standard color filters ruled out a sufficiently wide range of science that it was rejected. Perhaps the SWG would like to revisit this. Meanwhile, LSST Corp is proceeding with this phase of engineering. So far it looks good. At our last SWG meeting the need for FOMs was discussed. I was also asked by the LSST Corp chair and two prospective funding sources to estimate these FOMs for the three proposed facilities. These FOMs indicate the relative areas of survey advantage for these facilities. For the purposes of the SWG, a different set of FOMs are also relevant. Each facility must choose to optimize parameters to address their own suite of chosen science opportunities, and I think this is what you are getting at. PS will take exposures as short as 30 sec by going to a wide filter and thus focus on certain planetary problems (KBOs and PHAs). So a set of FOMs like the “level playing field” ones, but with these choices made, for each science program, would be useful. For example, they would be a tool for addressing the question of what fraction of that science program will be done by which facility and by when. Getting those estimates will require simulations like those now being carried out viz optical bursters of various time profiles and frequencies, 90% of PHAs to 200m, weak lensing cosmology via all sky cosmic shear and cluster counting vs redshift, all sky astrometric standards of high density and related science, etc. One thing is clear from the present relative FOMs: the 8.4 m LSST enables a unique range of science using the same survey data. 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